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Michael Curtis
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When you bring up II V I and secondary dominant, it muddies the waters...

  • ii7 V7 I in major
  • ii7b5 V7 I in minor

...neither of those progression involves a secondary dominant, both are diatonic for their respective modes.

Both of those progression can be called "roots by descending fifths"

Diatonically, roots by descending fifths to the seventh scale degree would be...

  • I IV viio in major
  • i iv ♭VII in minor

I see another problem in the wording of the question, because this, "secondary dominant", does not change in meaning, because of this "specially in jazz".

A dominant is a dominant, and it is a concept from the major/minor harmony system, where tonics are major or minor triads, and their dominants are major chords rooted a perfect fifth above the tonic root. Secondary dominant are dominants to any major/minor triads that are not the prevailing tonic. In the major/minor system a diminished triad can't be a tonic so there is no dominant to relate to that non-tonic chord.

Essentially, secondary dominants follow the function of diatonic harmony, the only difference is a temporary change of the tonic.

The two main thing jazz introduces to the tonic/dominant concept are:

  • extending the tonic chord with sevenths, sixths, etc.
  • tritone substitution of the dominant

...otherwise the basic tonic triad in jazz is still a major or minor triad.

You can look into people working with locrian harmony in jazz, where the "tonic" would be the diminished triad, but IMO it makes more sense to think of that as a kind of modal harmony and not a flavor of the major/minor system.

Ah, I overlooked the obvious: in minor ♭VII can have secondary dominant IV7 or V7/♭VII so the II V I to the seventh scale degree, in minor, would be i IV7 ♭VII. Of course that doesn't end on a diminished chord, so I think this isn't really what you are asking about.

When you bring up II V I and secondary dominant, it muddies the waters...

  • ii7 V7 I in major
  • ii7b5 V7 I in minor

...neither of those progression involves a secondary dominant, both are diatonic for their respective modes.

Both of those progression can be called "roots by descending fifths"

Diatonically, roots by descending fifths to the seventh scale degree would be...

  • I IV viio in major
  • i iv ♭VII in minor

I see another problem in the wording of the question, because this, "secondary dominant", does not change in meaning, because of this "specially in jazz".

A dominant is dominant, and it is a concept from the major/minor harmony system, where tonics are major or minor triads, and their dominants are major chords rooted a perfect fifth above the tonic root. Secondary dominant are dominants to any major/minor triads that are not the prevailing tonic. In the major/minor system a diminished triad can't be a tonic so there is no dominant to relate to that non-tonic chord.

Essentially, secondary dominants follow the function of diatonic harmony, the only difference is a temporary change of the tonic.

The two main thing jazz introduces to the tonic/dominant concept are:

  • extending the tonic chord with sevenths, sixths, etc.
  • tritone substitution of the dominant

...otherwise the basic tonic triad in jazz is still a major or minor triad.

You can look into people working with locrian harmony in jazz, where the "tonic" would be the diminished triad, but IMO it makes more sense to think of that as a kind of modal harmony and not a flavor of the major/minor system.

Ah, I overlooked the obvious: in minor ♭VII can have secondary dominant IV7 or V7/♭VII so the II V I to the seventh scale degree, in minor, would be i IV7 ♭VII. Of course that doesn't end on a diminished chord, so I think this isn't really what you are asking about.

When you bring up II V I and secondary dominant, it muddies the waters...

  • ii7 V7 I in major
  • ii7b5 V7 I in minor

...neither of those progression involves a secondary dominant, both are diatonic for their respective modes.

Both of those progression can be called "roots by descending fifths"

Diatonically, roots by descending fifths to the seventh scale degree would be...

  • I IV viio in major
  • i iv ♭VII in minor

I see another problem in the wording of the question, because this, "secondary dominant", does not change in meaning, because of this "specially in jazz".

A dominant is a dominant, and it is a concept from the major/minor harmony system, where tonics are major or minor triads, and their dominants are major chords rooted a perfect fifth above the tonic root. Secondary dominant are dominants to any major/minor triads that are not the prevailing tonic. In the major/minor system a diminished triad can't be a tonic so there is no dominant to relate to that non-tonic chord.

Essentially, secondary dominants follow the function of diatonic harmony, the only difference is a temporary change of the tonic.

The two main thing jazz introduces to the tonic/dominant concept are:

  • extending the tonic chord with sevenths, sixths, etc.
  • tritone substitution of the dominant

...otherwise the basic tonic triad in jazz is still a major or minor triad.

You can look into people working with locrian harmony in jazz, where the "tonic" would be the diminished triad, but IMO it makes more sense to think of that as a kind of modal harmony and not a flavor of the major/minor system.

Ah, I overlooked the obvious: in minor ♭VII can have secondary dominant IV7 or V7/♭VII so the II V I to the seventh scale degree, in minor, would be i IV7 ♭VII. Of course that doesn't end on a diminished chord, so I think this isn't really what you are asking about.

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Michael Curtis
  • 59.5k
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  • 164

When you bring up II V I and secondary dominant, it muddies the waters...

  • ii7 V7 I in major
  • ii7b5 V7 I in minor

...neither of those progression involves a secondary dominant, both are diatonic for their respective modes.

Both of those progression can be called "roots by descending fifths"

Diatonically, roots by descending fifths to the seventh scale degree would be...

  • I IV viio in major
  • i iv ♭VII in minor

I see another problem in the wording of the question, because this, "secondary dominant", does not change in meaning, because of this "specially in jazz".

A dominant is dominant, and it is a concept from the major/minor harmony system, where tonics are major or minor triads, and their dominants are major chords rooted a perfect fifth above the tonic root. Secondary dominant are dominants to any major/minor triads that are not the prevailing tonic. In the major/minor system a diminished triad can't be a tonic so there is no dominant to relate to that non-tonic chord.

Essentially, secondary dominants follow the function of diatonic harmony, the only difference is a temporary change of the tonic.

The two main thing jazz introduces to the tonic/dominant concept are:

  • extending the tonic chord with sevenths, sixths, etc.
  • tritone substitution of the dominant

...otherwise the basic tonic triad in jazz is still a major or minor triad.

You can look into people working with locrian harmony in jazz, where the "tonic" would be the diminished triad, but IMO it makes more sense to think of that as a kind of modal harmony and not a flavor of the major/minor system.

Ah, I overlooked the obvious: in minor ♭VII can have secondary dominant IV7 or V7/♭VII so the II V I to the seventh scale degree, in minor, would be i IV7 ♭VII. Of course that doesn't end on a diminished chord, so I think this isn't really what you are asking about.

When you bring up II V I and secondary dominant, it muddies the waters...

  • ii7 V7 I in major
  • ii7b5 V7 I in minor

...neither of those progression involves a secondary dominant, both are diatonic for their respective modes.

Both of those progression can be called "roots by descending fifths"

Diatonically, roots by descending fifths to the seventh scale degree would be...

  • I IV viio in major
  • i iv ♭VII in minor

I see another problem in the wording of the question, because this, "secondary dominant", does not change in meaning, because of this "specially in jazz".

A dominant is dominant, and it is a concept from the major/minor harmony system, where tonics are major or minor triads, and their dominants are major chords rooted a perfect fifth above the tonic root. Secondary dominant are dominants to any major/minor triads that are not the prevailing tonic. In the major/minor system a diminished triad can't be a tonic so there is no dominant to relate to that non-tonic chord.

Essentially, secondary dominants follow the function of diatonic harmony, the only difference is a temporary change of the tonic.

The two main thing jazz introduces to the tonic/dominant concept are:

  • extending the tonic chord with sevenths, sixths, etc.
  • tritone substitution of the dominant

...otherwise the basic tonic triad in jazz is still a major or minor triad.

You can look into people working with locrian harmony in jazz, where the "tonic" would be the diminished triad, but IMO it makes more sense to think of that as a kind of modal harmony and not a flavor of the major/minor system.

When you bring up II V I and secondary dominant, it muddies the waters...

  • ii7 V7 I in major
  • ii7b5 V7 I in minor

...neither of those progression involves a secondary dominant, both are diatonic for their respective modes.

Both of those progression can be called "roots by descending fifths"

Diatonically, roots by descending fifths to the seventh scale degree would be...

  • I IV viio in major
  • i iv ♭VII in minor

I see another problem in the wording of the question, because this, "secondary dominant", does not change in meaning, because of this "specially in jazz".

A dominant is dominant, and it is a concept from the major/minor harmony system, where tonics are major or minor triads, and their dominants are major chords rooted a perfect fifth above the tonic root. Secondary dominant are dominants to any major/minor triads that are not the prevailing tonic. In the major/minor system a diminished triad can't be a tonic so there is no dominant to relate to that non-tonic chord.

Essentially, secondary dominants follow the function of diatonic harmony, the only difference is a temporary change of the tonic.

The two main thing jazz introduces to the tonic/dominant concept are:

  • extending the tonic chord with sevenths, sixths, etc.
  • tritone substitution of the dominant

...otherwise the basic tonic triad in jazz is still a major or minor triad.

You can look into people working with locrian harmony in jazz, where the "tonic" would be the diminished triad, but IMO it makes more sense to think of that as a kind of modal harmony and not a flavor of the major/minor system.

Ah, I overlooked the obvious: in minor ♭VII can have secondary dominant IV7 or V7/♭VII so the II V I to the seventh scale degree, in minor, would be i IV7 ♭VII. Of course that doesn't end on a diminished chord, so I think this isn't really what you are asking about.

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Michael Curtis
  • 59.5k
  • 4
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  • 164

When you bring up II V I and secondary dominant, it muddies the waters...

  • ii7 V7 I in major
  • ii7b5 V7 I in minor

...neither of those progression involves a secondary dominant, both are diatonic for their respective modes.

Both of those progression can be called "roots by descending fifths"

Diatonically, roots by descending fifths to the seventh scale degree would be...

  • I IV viio in major
  • i iv ♭VII in minor

I see another problem in the wording of the question, because this, "secondary dominant", does not change in meaning, because of this "specially in jazz".

A dominant is dominant, and it is a concept from the major/minor harmony system, where tonics are major or minor triads, and their dominants are major chords rooted a perfect fifth above the tonic root. Secondary dominant are dominants to any of the diatonic major/minor triads that are not the prevailing tonic. In the major/minor system a diminished triad can't be a tonic so there is no dominant to relate to that non-tonic chord.

Essentially, secondary dominants follow the function of diatonic harmony, the only difference is a temporary change of the tonic.

The two main thing jazz introduces to the tonic/dominant concept are:

  • extending the tonic chord with sevenths, sixths, etc.
  • tritone substitution of the dominant

...otherwise the basic tonic triad in jazz is still a major or minor triad.

You can look into people working with locrian harmony in jazz, where the "tonic" would be the diminished triad, but IMO it makes more sense to think of that as a kind of modal harmony and not a flavor of the major/minor system.

When you bring up II V I and secondary dominant, it muddies the waters...

  • ii7 V7 I in major
  • ii7b5 V7 I in minor

...neither of those progression involves a secondary dominant, both are diatonic for their respective modes.

Both of those progression can be called "roots by descending fifths"

Diatonically, roots by descending fifths to the seventh scale degree would be...

  • I IV viio in major
  • i iv ♭VII in minor

I see another problem in the wording of the question, because this, "secondary dominant", does not change in meaning, because of this "specially in jazz".

A dominant is dominant, and it is a concept from the major/minor harmony system, where tonics are major or minor triads, and their dominants are major chords rooted a perfect fifth above the tonic root. Secondary dominant are dominants to any of the diatonic major/minor triads that are not the tonic. In the major/minor system a diminished triad can't be a tonic so there is no dominant to relate to that non-tonic chord.

Essentially, secondary dominants follow the function of diatonic harmony, the only difference is a temporary change of the tonic.

The two main thing jazz introduces to the tonic/dominant concept are:

  • extending the tonic chord with sevenths, sixths, etc.
  • tritone substitution of the dominant

...otherwise the basic tonic triad in jazz is still a major or minor triad.

You can look into people working with locrian harmony in jazz, where the "tonic" would be the diminished triad, but IMO it makes more sense to think of that as a kind of modal harmony and not a flavor of the major/minor system.

When you bring up II V I and secondary dominant, it muddies the waters...

  • ii7 V7 I in major
  • ii7b5 V7 I in minor

...neither of those progression involves a secondary dominant, both are diatonic for their respective modes.

Both of those progression can be called "roots by descending fifths"

Diatonically, roots by descending fifths to the seventh scale degree would be...

  • I IV viio in major
  • i iv ♭VII in minor

I see another problem in the wording of the question, because this, "secondary dominant", does not change in meaning, because of this "specially in jazz".

A dominant is dominant, and it is a concept from the major/minor harmony system, where tonics are major or minor triads, and their dominants are major chords rooted a perfect fifth above the tonic root. Secondary dominant are dominants to any major/minor triads that are not the prevailing tonic. In the major/minor system a diminished triad can't be a tonic so there is no dominant to relate to that non-tonic chord.

Essentially, secondary dominants follow the function of diatonic harmony, the only difference is a temporary change of the tonic.

The two main thing jazz introduces to the tonic/dominant concept are:

  • extending the tonic chord with sevenths, sixths, etc.
  • tritone substitution of the dominant

...otherwise the basic tonic triad in jazz is still a major or minor triad.

You can look into people working with locrian harmony in jazz, where the "tonic" would be the diminished triad, but IMO it makes more sense to think of that as a kind of modal harmony and not a flavor of the major/minor system.

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Michael Curtis
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Michael Curtis
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