Timeline for Is there such thing as a secondary dominant (or 2-5) of the 7th degree?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
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| Mar 15, 2023 at 19:00 | history | edited | Michael Curtis | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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| Mar 15, 2023 at 4:57 | comment | added | Todd Wilcox | Ok, I found what I was thinking of. In this video, Jens Larsen says "I actually don't know of any songs that have a cadence to the seventh degree, but if I was to add a cadence to that one I would say [the half diminished chord] is a minor chord, and then I would make a minor cadence. So that [would be] C# half diminished to F7 to B half-diminished." So you're right that it kind of doesn't make sense to talk about a "ii - V" tonicizing a half-diminished chord, but I feel like what Larsen suggests should be part of an answer to this question. | |
| Mar 14, 2023 at 21:13 | comment | added | Michael Curtis | That example, in a real song, where that RNA is aurally justified, meaning the key really had been established, would be interesting to see. Speaking categorically that would be some kind of deceptive progression. | |
| Mar 14, 2023 at 21:06 | comment | added | Todd Wilcox | I don’t totally agree with your first sentence. I also feel like I’ve seen a specific ii - V - i° progression that would answer this question but I can’t find it right now. | |
| Mar 14, 2023 at 21:00 | history | edited | Michael Curtis | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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| Mar 14, 2023 at 20:43 | comment | added | Michael Curtis | What is it you want me to see in that linked site? Is there an example of a purported dominant to a diminished chord? | |
| Mar 14, 2023 at 20:41 | history | edited | Michael Curtis | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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| Mar 14, 2023 at 20:39 | comment | added | Michael Curtis |
Sure, you can modulate to/tonicize something like ♭II a chord not diatonic to the current key, but that new tonic is still a major/minor triad base. But the point is those tonics will not be a diminished chord. I tweaked my sentence to clarify that.
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| Mar 14, 2023 at 20:35 | comment | added | Todd Wilcox | You can (ii) V7 (almost) any chord in jazz, and when you do, the V7 you use is often dominant even when that dominant chord is not diatonic, so the concept of secondary dominants, AKA “applied chords” is relevant to jazz. Even if the V7 in a progression is diatonic to the key of the song or the key of the moment, it can sometimes be lumped in with all the applied V7 chords or applied ii V7 chord pairs. See viva.pressbooks.pub/openmusictheory/chapter/ii-v-i | |
| Mar 14, 2023 at 20:29 | comment | added | Todd Wilcox | I’m not sure but I think current teaching in jazz theory is a bit different from this. I’ll have to check my notes. | |
| Mar 14, 2023 at 20:16 | history | edited | Michael Curtis | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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| Mar 14, 2023 at 20:03 | history | edited | Michael Curtis | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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| Mar 14, 2023 at 19:54 | history | edited | Michael Curtis | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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| Mar 14, 2023 at 19:44 | history | answered | Michael Curtis | CC BY-SA 4.0 |