I have a 12/8 rhythm that has beats on the x's below:
1 + + 2 + + 3 + + 4 + +
x x x x x
I vaguely remember hearing a name for this years ago. Is it some kind of clave? Is there a name for it?
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1This article by Brad Mehldau might be of interest: Rock Hemiolas.– AaronCommented Nov 20, 2020 at 13:24
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4 Answers
There are several rhythms that use the 3-3-2-2-2 pulse in flamenco music from Spain. One of the most well known is Bulerías, a seemingly simple but very complex sounding rhythm made even more complex by the fact that they count starting on 12 instead of 1 So the basic accents fall on:
12..3..6.8.10.
An often used variation is:
12..3....78.10.
This gives the 3-3-2-2-2 pulse you are asking about.
In other styles that emulate a Spanish flavor, some of the most well known occurrences of this is “America” from “West Side Story” and the main theme from “Man of La Mancha”. I have played the latter show and this rhythm is used in a few songs in the score of that show. In La Mancha they wrote it as alternating bars of 6/8 and 3/4 but in America I believe they just wrote it in 6/8 with every other bar having the accents on beats 1, 3 and 5.
Someone with a more detailed knowledge of Flamenco music and dance can likely give you names of other rhythms that use this basic count such as Soleares, Alegrias and Peteneras (kudos @jsantander) but hopefully this will at least point you in the right direction.
answered Nov 20, 2020 at 0:04
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Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.– Dom ♦Commented Nov 21, 2020 at 23:35
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1What does "they count starting on 12" actually mean? Does it mean that "12 - - 3 - - 6 - 8 - 10 -" is the same rhythm as "1 - - 4 - - 7 - 9 - 11 -" and they simply use different numbers when talking about it? Or does it mean that in the rhythm "12 - - 3 - - 6 - 8 - 10 -," the second beat is logically the first beat in some sense, and so the rhythm is effectively actually "- - 3 - - 6 - 8 - 10 - 12"? Commented Jun 10, 2021 at 16:28
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@TannerSwett I don’t have the experience with that style to explain it but this video does around the 2 minute mark youtu.be/9ophgWK8dMs To me it sounds like 1-4-7-9-11 but they think of it and play it differently. Commented Jun 10, 2021 at 18:26
This is an example of hemiola
From the Oxford Companion to Music (2nd ed., Alison Latham, 2002)
Hemiola: In modern notation, a hemiola occurs when two bars in triple meter (e.g., 3/2) are performed as if they were notated as three bars in duple meter (6/4) and vice versa.
The Wikipedia entry linked above goes on to say that when the 3:2 ratio occurs simultaneously -- that is, one part is in three while another is in two -- the term is sesquialtera. However, the term does not appear in the OCM.
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2@LaurencePayne If by "We're not discussing hemiola" you mean "this is the dictionary definition of hemiola", then I totally agree with you.– AaronCommented Nov 20, 2020 at 3:10
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2No answer to the original question would be complete unless hemiola was mentioned.– JosCommented Nov 20, 2020 at 8:50
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2@LaurencePayne The section in the linked article explicitly calls out this rhythm pattern in the section on horizontal hemiola: "It is "a cliché of various Spanish and Latin American musics ... well established in Spain since the sixteenth century", a twelve-beat scheme with internal accents, consisting of a 6/8 bar followed by one in 3/4, for a 3 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 2 pattern." That's exactly what is described in the question.– shhalahrCommented Nov 20, 2020 at 12:52
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2"sesquialtera" is discussed here I see it as a synonym of hemiola. Simultaneous 3 against 2 is often described as a hemiola cross-rhythm or simply a 3 against 2 cross-rhythm. Commented Nov 20, 2020 at 13:22
Colloquially it's often described as 'that rhythm from 'America' (West Side Story).
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2'Is there a name for it?' I reckon ten times more folk would call it 'America' compared with 'hemiola'...– TimCommented Nov 20, 2020 at 9:02
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2Why isn't it hemiola? What does hemiola have that this rhythm doesn't?– phoogCommented Nov 21, 2020 at 1:48
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@LaurencePayne my question wasn't rhetorical. I agree that this isn't what I would associate with the term, but I am at a loss to define the difference.– phoogCommented Jan 5, 2021 at 23:25
Your rhythm is reminiscent of Arabic rhythms, which of course are an influence on Flamenco music. Check this out: https://www.maqamworld.com/en/iqaa/warshan_arabi.php
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1Thanks for your answer, and welcome. Problem for the future with links is they can suffer from linkrot, leaving answers like this pretty empty.– TimCommented Nov 21, 2020 at 17:21