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Orchestras tune to A. But a trombone in 1st position can only play Bb or F. A trombone would need to be in 2nd position to play that A. How does the trombonist know whether to adjust the tuning slide or adjust his/her usage of 2nd position?

Likewise for a C or F tuba: In a wind ensemble or brass band tuning to Bb, the C or F tuba will need to hold the 1st valve. How does the tuba player know whether to adjust the main tuning slide or the 1st valve slide?

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  • I have a feeling that both the trombonist and the tuba player would rather be tuning to (the concert band choice of) Bb than A, and any attempts to tune to A result in a high risk of the easier-to-play Bb being out of tune. – Dekkadeci Jan 16 at 15:31
  • I've never heard an Oboe play a Bb before the conductor arrives at an orchestra. Is it likely that the brass section tunes the Bb before arriving in the concert hall? – Stewart Jan 16 at 15:37
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    My experience with school concert band is that the conductor whips out a tuner, then gets everyone in tune with the Bb (but the percussionists not playing timpani), starting with the oboist(s). This takes a few minutes but may require multiple pass-throughs. I believe this even happened on stage in school recitals (and maybe even out-of-town festivals and contests). I don't know how brass band tuning processes work, sorry. – Dekkadeci Jan 16 at 15:42
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    @Dekkadeci - usually, in the big bands I play in, the conductor will ask me (on keys) to play Bb. Sometimes he goes round individually with an electronic tuner. And it's always Bb, not A. – Tim Jan 16 at 15:52
  • Bb makes complete sense for that type of band (any band without bowed strings would use Bb), but it still poses the problem for the C or F tuba player. – Stewart Jan 16 at 15:56
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Orchestral trombonists happily tune to A. We can refer it to the 1st position D, in much the same way that a violinist doesn't need to be given different notes for his other three strings! And we know where 2nd position A is on our slides.

Also, our tuning slides aren't reset to zero when the instrument goes in the case. If it was in the right place for A=440 yesterday, it still will be today.

Don't argue unless you've BEEN an orchestral trombonist. I have šŸ˜€.

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  • Ah, tuning to the fourth! I also didn't think about tuning that high. The F-tubist could natively tune to the 5th of a Bb even easier than the fourth and has access to the A higher up. The C-tubist might still have a tough time tuning to Bb. Would only having access to the 2nd (C), 6th (G), and tritone (E) be too dissident for tuning? – Stewart Jan 16 at 17:19
  • Tuning a violin to a, say, Cā™Æ reference would definitely be pretty problematic. Tuning to the fingered note would be very unreliable (sure the position is well-trained, but on-the-fly adjustments to intonation are anyway common. For tuning the string, you would be messed up. And tuning to the major third down would open a can of just-vs-12edo-vs-Pythagorean worms, as well as cause major distraction in the string section.The reason for ā€œa violinist doesn't need to be given different notes for his other three stringsā€ is that they're in fiftths (though even that is a meantone minefield). – leftaroundabout Jan 17 at 1:26
  • Yes. That's why A to D works so well on trombone. Though, to be honest, we could learn to use any other interval from any other note. – Laurence Payne Jan 17 at 1:56
  • I think the 4th and 5th are particularly easy to tune on because of their resonance. The easiest thing to tune is obviously the octave (2:1), but the fifth is (3:2) and the fourth is (4:3). Other notes get quite dissident (2nd = 9:8), so it takes longer for the wavelengths to align making it harder to hear the "wah wah"s and that makes them tough to compare to the tonic. I think asking someone to tune the 2nd would be asking too much. – Stewart Jan 17 at 8:47
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In Brass bands the instruments are tuned by a given Bb => playing C or G (Eb instruments).

In the orchestra I actually donā€™t know:

  • The oboist can give them a Bb or F to tune their zero position or they will be able to take the Bb by ear a semitone higher than the given A.

  • They can tune with the trumpets giving them an concert Bb

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  • For brass bands, neither a C nor an F tuba can play a concert-Bb without pressing a valve (hence the second part of the question). – Stewart Jan 16 at 15:42
  • Yes, thatā€˜s what I mean, trumpets play 2nd valve to tune with A and then play zero to tune with trombones the Bb. – Albrecht Hügli Jan 16 at 16:03
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    Oh, I never thought of the trumpets relaying a note to the trombones! The 2nd valve is super short and doesn't have much room to move so I can see how there would be not much error introduced here. It's very plausible. I wonder if this really happens. – Stewart Jan 16 at 16:06
  • Iā€˜ve never played in an orchestra, but thatā€˜s the way I would tune them. – Albrecht Hügli Jan 16 at 16:11
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In a symphony orchestra almost every every player is able to fine-tune the pitch of notes while playing. The absolute exceptions are the piano (if used), harp, open notes on stringed instruments, and tuned percussion. The oboeist gets to maintain a stable note (A) for everyone else to tune to. String players tune open notes. Wind players including brass players know what concert A 'feels' like when it is centred.

On brass instruments the valve tuning slides generally don't need much adjustment, especially if players are always playing at the same pitch in an air-conditioned concert hall. If it is not quite right the player would be able to 'lip' it into tune. A good trombonist knows where the positions of the instrument are and will be able to get A reliably. If the tuning slide is not quite right a good player will use lip and slide to adjust.

When I played in junior orchestras many years ago, some conductors used the oboe to give a B-flat for the brass, and some expected all players to tune to A. Some would check by asking all brass players to play (concert) B-flat. I never came across a conductor who would do anything special to help the player of the G bass trombone.

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    Blimey! In what sort of orchestra (and how long ago) did you encounter a G bass trombone? – Laurence Payne Jan 17 at 16:26
  • This was a student orchestra in Melbourne (AU) in the early 1970s. The bass trombone may have belonged to the player's school. – Peter Jan 18 at 6:20
  • @LaurencePayne - off topic, but I'm curious: heve you ever encountered a BBb bass trombone, an octave lower than a normal tenor, with a doubled slide? I saw one once at a Renaissance Faire many years ago. – Scott Wallace Jan 18 at 8:33

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