Why are conductors' movements shifted with respect to the musicians?

Question

I have noticed that, in a concert, the conductor moves in advance: sometimes, they move all of a sudden, and the musicians start playing louder only a little time after.

I wonder why this is so: as an amateur musician, I think I would get very distracted and confused if someone were doing movements out of sync while I'm playing.

Are there different conducting styles? Do some conductors move in an exactly synchronized fashion?

Addendum: I understand that musicians should be told in advance what to do, sure! But taking the example of a fortissimo, obviously the musicians have rehearsed the music before and know that the fortissimo is coming. Besides, I guess that when reading the score, every musician reads a bit in advance! I think of this question as of an alternative:

• either the conductor moves out of sync, and this is disturbing because what the musicians play does not agree with the movements that the conductor does at the same time and might, for example, cause the musicians not to play simultaneously;
• either the conductor moves in an exact synchronization with the music and the musicians adapt themselves almost instantaneously, which may be hard, but the information that the conductor communicates is already known by them.

Edit: I have little experience of playing in a small band, and I remember that the conductor used to help us playing in time by doing upwards moves, preparing the downwards move on which we should all be synchronized. To me, it is nothing at all like interpreting with your hands the whole piece one beat ahead; it is playing exactly on time but with a gesture style that is « predictable ». I hope this was clear from my question.

A lot of answers here are pretty good, I don’t know which one to choose. I would like to thank everyone here!

Answer 1

The idea of conducting is to physically demonstrate how you want them to perform. As such, there necessarily will need to be some "processing time" built in for the musicians understand the gesture that they're seeing and then translate this into musical sound.

I've never seen a "synchronized" conducting style, or at least not one that suggested to me the performers were actually reacting to what the conductor was doing. By the very nature of these two concepts, a "synchronized" "reaction" is impossible.

This is even more true when you consider the physical logistics of playing instruments. If we want brass players to play louder, we have to give a gesture before the loud part appears so that the brass players can take the necessary breath to play louder. Similar aspects apply to other instrumental families.

In fact, I have a starred quote in my Conducting Technique by Brock McElheran:

Remember that you must show the performers what to do BEFORE THEY DO IT.

Answer 2

There are many different conducting styles.

A marching band conductor, for example, will tend to use very precise movements, in time with the ensemble, because that's the primary role — to keep time. In this setting, the musicians have to anticipate the conductor so that they play together at the right moment.

An orchestral conductor, on the other hand, will tend to make gestures in advance — an indication to a section to enter, an instruction to crescendo — because the musicians need time to respond. If the movements were exactly in time, the musicians would be late.

Jazz band conductors are often very loose, indicating downbeats, indicating soloists, but not applying the kind of precision or detail a marching band or orchestral conductor might.

Choral conductors are similar to orchestral ones, but their movements tend to be more flowing. Time in orchestral music is comparatively metronomic, whereas vocal music is more generally dictated by the text. A choral conductor will tend to conduct the words more so than the time.

As one gain experience with a particular conductor, one also gains a feel for, say, where the beats are and other quirks of that conductor's style. But even for professional musicians, it can be challenging to change from one conductor to another.

Answer 3

It is perfectly possible to conduct (and for the orchestra to follow) 'dead on the beat'. In the commercial music world this is the norm. Taken to extremes it's a click track.

One thing to understand about conducting. The down-beat doesn't come out of thin air. It's preceded by an up-beat, in tempo, which absolutely defines when the down-beat will come. Think 'count-down'. You don't start a race by suddenly shouting 'Go!', 'Ready, steady, go!' is much more use. In the same way, a conductor doesn't just lunge at the orchestra with a 'Play!' gesture, it's 'and - play'.

Having got that out of the way, yes, there is a tradition in some orchestras, particularly when playing more expressive music, of 'conducting ahead'. It can produce beautiful sounds in a Brahms symphony. I don't think many conductors would do it to 'Rite of Spring' or 'Carmina Burana'.

There are other issues and techniques involved when trying to keep an orchestra and choir together in a large concert hall. Sound travels slower than light.

Answer 4

The musicians need time to react. If the conductor makes a gesture meaning "play this note softly" at the same time the musicians begin playing the note, it's too late.

I think I would get very distracted and confused if someone was doing movements out of sync while I'm playing.

In fact, it's not out of sync. You should be thinking about how you're going to play the next note before you start playing it, and it is during this time that the conductor is communicating with you. Conductors call this "preparation." Those who don't understand it are much harder to follow (even "distracting and confusing") than those who do.

Answer 5

According to my music teacher, the first violin is the leader of the orchestra. They take the cue from the conductor and translate that into the bow movements that the others follow. (Of course, further back, you tend to follow the percussion!) So in that context as others have mentioned, the conductor expresses the style, and the leader interprets it.

I do remember a concert where the conductor jumped and flapped coat tails wildly, but never quite in time. At one point, he shuddered violently and drew his arms (and half his body) down. About a second later, the orchestra played a strident descending phrase, perfectly in time. I do remember thinking afterwards "He dances well!"

That all works well with an orchestra that knows what to play. I recall my dad talking about a guest conductor that was hard to follow. Someone complained that they couldn't see the down beat. She then gave a condescending lecture about how the down beat was when the stick moved downwards. I attended the concert itself and watched closely. The downbeats generally flew sideways in a wobbling sine wave. Generally...

In an amateur band or orchestra, and that includes top bands at national contest level, the conductor is in sync with the players. The downbeat goes down and the up beat goes up. And there's a lot of expression, but in sync with the music. A big fortissimo on the downbeat is indicated by a huge upbeat. A solo gets a warning eye and a turn in that direction. If the music pauses, all eyes go on the conductor to watch for the up beat that signals when to play again.

So I don't believe there is a style where the conductor is precisely a certain number of milliseconds in advance. There is an expressive style which requires the musicians to be on top of their game and following with discipline. And a more rigid style for those that aren't (or might forget half way through!)

Answer 6

Every conductor has his own style of downbeat and what you might call "posture codes." Until you get familiar with a given conductor, you may perceive a lag between his beat and the orchestra's beat.
As to dynamics, I suspect you are seeing the conductor indicate, basically, "OK next beat (or next downbeat) it's time for a dramatic fortissimo." Many signals are provided slightly in advance; how else would the musicians be able to respond exactly in time?

Answer 7

There are principially two philosophies in orchestral conducting. One is conducting in time and one is conding a beat ahead. The first one allows for more direct interaction between conductor and orchestra. The other one is safer, as it allows more time for reaction. This means that the first style is nice if the conductor and the orchestra work really well together, like here

while the second style is useful if something like this is hard, due to orchestra size, skill and experience with the conductor. Many conductors will thus decide on this style depending on the orchestra they are playing with.

Answer 8

Dr. Jack Stamp demonstrates this here (6:52)

He asks the audience to sing on the off-beat when he indicates by conducting. He demonstrates two ways that, as a conductor, he can tell the audience when he wants them to sing: by signaling on that offbeat, or conducting before.

He demonstrates that if you signal that something should happen at the exact time you want it to happen, then the band will be late!

(The entire video is worth a watch!)

Answer 9

If you are talking about how an orchestra conductor always seems to be beating just a little ahead of what you hear the orchestra playing, remember that string instruments take quite a bit of time to get a sound except when plucked (and even then it takes longer than, say, a percussion instrument). As a tuba player with an orchestra, I had to learn to play on the back-end of the beat rather than right on it as I would with a band. This is to keep the sound together with the strings. They attack at the right moment, but the sound takes just a little longer to develop and so would always sound (to my band-trained ear) like they were behind.

Answer 10

That conductor does several things. First of all he conducts the beat and that is exact, the whole orchestra is synchronised with that. But he also does many other things.

The exact beat is done with a conductor's stick, which is called a baton. Let us say the time sig is 4/4. There is an invisible point in the air. The conductor hits that point exactly on each beat. He hits it from four different directions (with time sig 4/4), so that you can always see which beat is happening.

With the other hand he can do a lot of different things. Like indicate a crescendo, a diminuendo or a sudden change in dynamics. He can focus on one group of the orchestra, let us say the 1. violins, and indicate something to them, like play softer or whatever, or he can direct it to the whole orchestra.

He can also give a sign to when someone in the orchestra should play again after several bars with pause. At that point the player(s) who had a pause can both see that it is their turn and they can enter exactly at the right moment by looking at the baton. They are also listening to the music at the same time of course.

Thus the conductor both indicate the beat as well as all sorts of expressions and indications.