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Backstory:

  • Programmer.
  • Teaching myself piano.
  • Programatically building sheet music that will comprehensively cover a great number of chords, as comprehensive as it is reasonably useful and can be played on one hand. [ So far, I have ~1000 entries ], to which will include all the ideal fingering for both left and right hands.

Confusion:

I decided to use pianochord.org as a foundation, and have scraped all that I can. There are a couple of areas on the site that omit fingering or labels, such as

https://www.pianochord.org/a11.html

enter image description here

I am not interested in A11 proper because it is 6+ keys and can't be attempted with one hand. However under inversions, it shows this image:

https://www.pianochord.org/images/a11_inversion.png

It's path is https://www.pianochord.org/images/a11_inversion.png

It is labelled "Voicings", and as I understand, it has a virtually identical cadence to A11. Now I just had to figure out how to actually label it. My guess was to label it:

  • A11(no3)/A

A11 being the chord, the third is omitted ( I dont really understand but that is fine for now ) and the / indicates an inversion, where the following letter will be the root, ie, the lowest pitched note in the chord.

However when trying to verify this, I was told that this can not be an inversion, because the lowest key is A, the same as the key. However, the image is titled as an inversion, so I don't know what to think.

Question:

  1. How do I label the chord for the bottom image?
  2. Is it, or is it not an inversion?
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  • A valid question, and an interesting project to catalogue chord voicings. But it sounds like you are trying to play the piano as if it were a guitar - this method won't help you learn to play piano.
    – Ian Goldby
    Commented Jul 19 at 11:43

4 Answers 4

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I'm tempted to close this question because it's simply caused by a confusing website design, but the confusion itself can be addressed:

However under inversions, it shows this image

I see a button that says "show inversions and voicings." Clicking it displays two extra images, including the one in question, and changes the button text to "hide inversions." A header element says "A11 voicings." So this image doesn't appear "under inversions"; it appears in a "voicings" section that is toggled by a button that also mentions inversions.

What's the difference? "Inversion" is simply about whichever note is on the bottom. Let's think of a simpler chord, like C major. There are only three options for the lowest note: C, E, or G. "Voicing" is about how the rest of the notes are spread out, in what order. You could play a C, and then the E right above it, and then the G right above that, leaving gaps of only a third between each note. This would be the "tightest" this chord could get (we call it "closed" voicing). Or instead, you could play an E that was an octave higher, or several octaves. Or move the G up an octave or two. You can play those notes anywhere you want, and it would still be a C major chord, and as long as the lowest note was C, it would still be in root position.

The website actually showed only two possible voicings, one of which is also an inversion, when there are many, many others. Although the button text "hide inversions" is confusing and sloppy, it does use the word "voicing" below each image.

Screenshot from pianochord.org


One other points:

[I'm] programatically building sheet music that will comprehensively cover a great number of chords, as comprehensive as it is reasonably useful and can be played on one hand. [ So far, I have ~1000 entries ], to which will include all the ideal fingering for both left and right hands.

I don't see why anything should dissuade you from doing this for fun, but I hope you're not motivated by the idea that this is the best approach to learning to play. There's a lot more to pianistic skill than chords, and most beginner methods start with linear, melodic playing, then add a few notes at a time. It's also very much an abstraction to think that there is "an ideal fingering" for a given chord. In practice, the fingerings you choose, and even the voicings of the chord, will be affected by the surrounding context.

Even for such an abstract goal as compiling a database of chord voicings, what I see from pianochord.org would lead me to choose a different source.

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  • So the whole thing is, this one particular web site has a feature "inversions and voicings", but the text on the show/hide button was shortened to only mention inversions? Commented Jul 18 at 15:00
  • @piiperiReinstateMonica And only the "hide" state of the button, yes. Commented Jul 18 at 15:04
  • @AndyBonner Not quite. As pointed out, the image itself is named a11_inversion.png even though it is not an inversion. That was the chiefly causing me to second guess.
    – Anon
    Commented Jul 18 at 18:17
  • re: Choosing a Different Source Comprehensive is the goal, and AI is just too riddled with errors to rely upon. If you know of anything, I'd be much obliged.
    – Anon
    Commented Jul 18 at 18:21
  • 1
    ... even if one assembled all of them, you would come back to your original goal, "what's the best fingering," and find that the answer is "it depends what else is going on." Consider, for instance, a simple F/C in closed position – C, F, A. You might finger it as 1, 3, 5 if you were alternating it with a C chord, or 1, 2, 4 with a C7no3. Commented Jul 18 at 20:05
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  1. Out of context, it's not possible to know the appropriate label. It could be any of the following:

A7sus2sus4, A9sus4, A11(no3), E-7/A, G6/A, D6sus2sus4/A, D6-9sus4/A, D11(no3, add6)/A, D13(no3)

  1. Presuming it's an A chord, then it's in root position, which is not an inversion.

See also what is the method behind naming jazz chords?.

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  • Given that the context is A11, one thing I am confused by is the sequence that they detail on the website, stating OMISSIONS: A11(no3): A - E - G - B - D;. What would make sense to me is to order it as A - B - D - E - G considering it is left to right what keys come first. Do you have any idea why they chose that order?
    – Anon
    Commented Jul 18 at 6:47
  • @Anon The theory says that chords are built on thirds, so an 11th chord would comprise 1-3-5-7-9-11 it its canonical voicing.
    – Aaron
    Commented Jul 18 at 7:07
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It looks like the confusion was caused by bad website design, having a button "show/hide inversions" which shows inversions AND VOICINGS which is a separate concept. But I'll add this anyway, maybe it helps someone. If it doesn't help, feel free to ignore and/or downvote.

The best way to learn a culture and its language is to get involved in the culture, interact with people and do things that people do in that culture. You don't really learn to operate in a culture by implementing descriptions of it in a computer program. Writing music programs will, I hope, lead to discovering different musical practices and incompatibilities between theories and practices. But that's only my opinion.

That being cleared, some more points:

  • Chord symbols have evolved primarily to serve as instructions for accompanists in popular music. Short descriptions of the essential harmonic changes in a song arrangement, written for a guitarist, pianist, bass player to play, to improvise accompaniment. The purpose of this is commercial, industrial, hands-on practical, to get things done efficiently with minimal effort.
  • There is some kind of a theoretical model behind chord symbol notation: tertian harmony where harmonic ideas can be expressed as stacks of thirds. If something cannot be expressed as a stack of thirds, then it's kind of a non-chord from that perspective. But that's an approximation with limited usefulness in practice. There are many harmonic constructs and aspects that are used in practice, but which don't fit the stack-of-thirds model and either have to be kludged-around or simply cannot be expressed at all. Exceptions have been made to serve practical needs. For example the "6" chord, which according to the pure tertian model is an inversion of a minor seventh chord. Or the "5" chord which means a power chord. These haven't been decided and approved in any standards committee, people just start calling something by some name and sometimes the practice catches on.
  • A theoretical "11" chord, if we just systematically follow the idea of adding more thirds to the stack, should contain six different notes, a stack of five thirds. It's a word that can be constructed with the syntactic rules of the theoretical chord symbol language, like you could synthetically construct words like "undescribabilitificationness". Is that syntactically valid? Even if it is, I don't know what it would mean in practice, and nobody uses that word.
  • In practice, the "11" chord type has been used to describe a kind of a sus chord, one that doesn't have a third. Why? Maybe just because this chord naming language was the only one that was available. It was a name that was possible to say in that language, so someone thought, it's a word that's free to be used for something so I'll start using it for this chord that I actually use, and no musician in their right mind will try to play a third in there because it would be nonsensical. And now in theory books, there have to be hand-waving explanations that "the third is usually omitted." But isn't that equally ridiculous as explaining that "in practice, there is usually no ham in a hamburger, even though the word ham can be found in the beginning of the word hamburger?" The truth is that you cannot systematically deduce the word's real-world meaning without knowing the culture.

Then the questions

How do I label the chord for the bottom image?

Depending on what you want to achieve and who the players are for who you're writing this notation, you could use at least the following labels in a song chart:

  • A11 (rely on your players knowing about musical practice)
  • G6/A (gets all the notes right, but if a guitarist plays a full barre chord, the low G will clash with a bass player and sound muddy)
  • G/A (gets the sound mostly right, and not too confusing, but the same problem with beginner guitarists clashing with bass)
  • A7 sus4 add9 (clunky but if you want all the same notes without a slash)
  • A7 sus4 (might be doable for many beginners, only the 9th is missing and no wrong notes added, and no bass clash)
  • Asus (even more doable for beginners, gets the "sus" thing right, and no wrong notes)

I slightly question the idea of playing thick piano chords like this on one hand, if played with the exact voicing shown in the picture. Depending on the octave it may sound muddy.

If playing, say, an arranger/accompaniment keyboard with left-hand chords, the keyboard may not correctly identify the A-B-D-E-G chord shown in the picture and it may be necessary to leave out the B, and then Asus4 or A7sus4 would work better.

Is it, or is it not an inversion?

It's not an inversion. Except if you insist on seeing it as G69/A, then it would be an inversion.

Furthermore, if taken according to a pure theoretical definition, it cannot be said to be an inversion of ANY stack of thirds at all.

I entered the notes into the Python program here: Formal definition of an inverted chord

and thus printed the computer:

 ['A', 'B', 'D', 'E', 'G']  cannot be said to be an inversion of any canonical stack of thirds.
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[I] have scraped all that I can

There is no need to scrape it!

Pitches within chords can be generated from chord description (label), and are unique. The website can be used for reference, but that website likely doesn't use chord lists. Instead, it can have various choices for each element of a chord label, and then it can assemble them to produce the pitches and show them on the keyboard.

Note that for each set of pitches, there usually are multiple chord labels that give rise to them. That's because the same pitches can serve different functions in different chords.

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