3

I was wondering why the circle of fifths only has three keys that are enharmonically equivalent at the bottom of it namely, C#/Db, Gb/F#, B/Cb. Why only those three? Can’t the other notes in the circle also be called different names such as A#/Bb, Eb/D#, C/B#, etc. One thing I noticed is the flatted keys are on the left, and sharp keys are on the right of the circle. Why then did they show C# on the left.

enter image description here

  • 6
    There are too many enharmonic equivalents to show them all without making the whole thing a mess. – Todd Wilcox Apr 11 at 14:54
  • 1
    I think if you really want a chart for the key signatures it should have 15 positions. – Michael Curtis Apr 11 at 15:16
  • 1
    It's already a mess as it is! What value is an intersection to connect G# minor with Cb major? A practical reason for a reference chart? Who needs a quick reference to know that G# minor's relative major's enharmonic equivalent is Cb major? – Michael Curtis Apr 11 at 17:45
  • 3
    There's no reason to downvote this question. It's fair to ask for an explanation. – Michael Curtis Apr 11 at 19:17
  • 2
    The graphic doesn't show enharmonic notes, it illustrates keys. And while e.g. g flat minor is theoretically a perfectly valid construction, in practice no one ever uses it because f sharp minor is more convenient - so there is no point in illustrating it either. – Kilian Foth Apr 12 at 6:42
6

Why? Because the designer of that particular chart decided to. I think it would have been more logical to just show F#/G♭, the only one where there is no default spelling.

Don't worry too much about the Circle of 5ths anyway. It over-illustrates a very simple concept. I think it's only included in textbooks because it's a pretty way of filling a page!

It illustrates (but doesn't explain) dominant-tonic relationships. It makes beginners worry over why ♭III, ♭VII etc. are 'allowed' - after all, they're SO far away in the Circle! It shows you 'close' keys that aren't really close at all - moving a song's melody up a 5th or down a 4th will just sabotage the vocalist!

  • I thought the circle of fifths is the most important diagram in all of music. – foreyez Apr 11 at 15:11
  • 1
    Nah! See my additions ... – Laurence Payne Apr 11 at 15:26
  • not sure about vocalist, but it's blasphemous in music to say anything bad about the circle. youtube.com/watch?v=PUaiUz-PawQ – foreyez Apr 11 at 16:17
  • 2
    Know about it, don't worship it! Now, if you looked at the INTERVALS within chords and melodies that cause tensions and resolutions, it would be much more use. Some people get lost if they can't analyse EVERY progression in terms of 'circle of 5ths' relationships! – Laurence Payne Apr 11 at 17:03
  • The circle of fifths is an incredibly valuable tool, especially for working with modes. If you remember the abbr. LIMDAPL, then constructing modes becomes SIGNIFICANTLY easier: associate "I" (Ionian) with the major scale of the tonal center you want to construct, "L" (Lydian) goes to the right ("one sharp greater") and the rest of the abbrv. goes around the other way, one letter per key signature at a time. So A Mixolydian is an A scale with the key signature of D maj; E Locrian is E with the key signature of F major, and so forth. – John Doe Apr 15 at 18:55
4

The scale of B# major would be: B# Cx (double sharp) Dx E# Fx Gx Ax B#

As you can see every single note is enharmonic to the note next to it. It's just not practical or easy to read or play.

It is much simpler to just use C.

  • well C was just one example, I meant why just two on the circle have enharmonic equivalents – foreyez Apr 11 at 14:31
  • 4
    Pick a key that's not there and try to spell it out. You will find the ones listed are the only ones that really make sense. – b3ko Apr 11 at 14:32
  • @foreyez Because that is a bad circle of fifths chart. I think there should be more enharmonics listed, especially becasue the enharmonic 'flipping' will depend on whether major or minor. I.e. G# minor verus Ab major. Notice how what is missing on the chart you found? – Michael Curtis Apr 11 at 14:33
  • Pick D# for example. D already has two sharps. All the natural notes will become sharps. F# and C# become double sharps. Much easier to use E flat with the three flats. – b3ko Apr 11 at 14:34
  • 1
    'The scale of B#...' – Tim Apr 11 at 17:19
3

It's a completely arbitrary limitation.

Professional quality music notation software will let you write in any key you like, between 7 triple-sharps and 7 triple-flats. (Of course you don't see those key signatures very often, but in case your don't believe they exist, here they are...)

enter image description here You won't find those keys on a circle of fifths chart because the only people who need the chart are beginners.

I assume the OP doesn't keep a chart of the letters in the English alphabet next to his/her PC to help write questions on this forum, but you will find them on the wall in most elementary school classrooms. Charts of the circle of fifths are at about the same level in musical theory education as those alphabet charts. After a very short while, you simply don't need them any more.

  • +1 for showing the theoretically possible insanity! – Michael Curtis Apr 11 at 19:19
  • "Professional quality music notation software will let you write in any key you like, between 7 triple-sharps and 7 triple-flats." No it won't. Unless you have a very narrow definition of 'professional quality'. – Laurence Payne Apr 12 at 14:34
  • If this doesn't answer the OP's question, nothing does! .+1 – Tim Apr 12 at 16:12
  • Which software did you write the triple-sharp/flat key signatures in? – dan04 Apr 13 at 7:09
  • The circle of fifths is not just for beginners. See my comment about modes on Laurence Payne's answer. – John Doe Apr 15 at 18:58
3

The seven major scales that only include single-sharped notes (G, D, A, E, B, F#, C#) + the seven major scales that only include single-flatted notes (F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, G, Cb) + C major are the only major scales that can be constructed using no "double-and-above-accidentals" (double-flat, double sharp, etc.). Of those 15 scales, there are three groups of two where both scales are tonally the same. Hence there are three tones on the circle of fifths with enharmonic equivalents printed, thus the circle of fifths represents all 12 tones of Western tonality (15 - 3 = 12).

  • The first sentence is a bit of a circular statement, but this is the only answer with a plausible and logical reason to explain the chart's inclusion of C-sharp major and C-flat major. – phoog Apr 13 at 4:57
  • @phoog I edited it to hopefully make it less circular. Does this make more sense? – John Doe Apr 15 at 18:48
  • Hm, yes, it's less circular, but more verbose and I suspect less clear. Perhaps something like "ignoring key signatures that contain double sharps or double flats, there are only fifteen possible key signatures: seven with sharps, seven with flats, and one with no signs at all." – phoog Apr 15 at 19:31
  • I figured with the addition of the parenthetical explanations, the meaning becomes clear. – John Doe Apr 15 at 20:37
  • Probably so. I've been thinking about it for too long to have a good idea about what would or wouldn't be clear to someone reading it for the first time. – phoog Apr 15 at 21:01
2

Obviously the two enharmonics are listed to show they are equivalent.

But I think this is a bad circle of fifths chart.

A good one should list the enharmonics for all of the common key signatures. Notice that G#/Ab is missing. A good chart should somehow visually explain the common choices are G# minor or Ab major.

...you just changed the chart!

This chart seems to split the difference.

It doesn't list all the standard enharmonics with each position because the inner circle for relative minor key makes you figure that out. In other words you need to mentally say "Ab is enharmonic to G#, let me find a G# somewhere else... there it is G# minor"

The way you make such a chart depends on what you really want it to explain.

This one combine at each position a combination of enharmonic equivalents and relative keys. It sort of wants to arrange things so that each position has the same count of sharps and flats which of course works for the relative keys, but it all breaks down in the enharmonic area. So...

Why only those three?

Because the designer doesn't seem to have a clear sense of what they want to explain. Is it about knowing the count of accidentals in a key signature or knowing the common keys for enharmonic tonics? It isn't clear what they want to show.


I think if you really want a chart for the key signatures it should have 15 positions. It would not pair up enharmonic equivalents like Ab/g#, but instead consistently list by accidental count like Ab/Fm. But the point of that would be to recognize key signatures rather than enharmonic tonics. I may draw one of my own - just to get the nagging out of my head - I'll come an update my post.

If a chart for explaining key signatures is desire, this seems to be a straight-foward design...

enter image description here

...emphasis on straight, I don't see any benefit to learning key signature by forming a circle. A circle is good for counting in fifths, but that is different than explaining key signatures.

If you warped that into a circle, it would be something like this, but I wouldn't wrap it around to try overlapping enharmonic equivalents, it will just become a mess...

enter image description here


You might ask "why does the typical circle of fifth switch at the F#/Gb equivalency point in the first place?" I think the obvious answer is so the accidental count in the key signature won't exceed 6. Instead of 7 sharps with C# major we jump at F#/Gb to flats which decrease each step until we get back to plain C.

Why doesn't it continue in a pure, logical fashion as F# C# G# D# A# E# B# Fx Cx..?

That would be logical and the accidental counts will increase regularly to 8, 9 , 10... sharps.

Obviously we don't because those aren't practical key signatures.

An that brings us right back around in a circle (pun intended) to say "if the point is to explain key signatures, don't list enharmonic equivalents that don't share key signatures, don't bother with a cirle, just list up to 7 accidentals then stop for sanity's sake."

1

The equal tempered circle of fiths is really a circle, there are only 12 possible major keys. Theoretically, you have an infinite number of possible names for these keys, as long as you allow double (triple, quadruple...) flats and sharps, but there's no musical difference. The reason for the usual cutoff at 15 key names, that is, 12 keys plus 3 enharmonic equivalents (B/Cb, F#/Gb, B#/C) is that this is all the possible keys that have no double flats or double sharps in their key signature.

That's it. It's just a convention and says nothing about the structure of music.

1

I have right now written a "circle of fifths" in a form of a line:

These are the usual equivalents

enter image description here

I will use this template to note the progression of the prelude in C# major below it. By the way: in this prelude the chords go till B# and e# minor. (So I actually wondered why Bach didn't write this prelude in Db major. But now I know!)

When I started with music I argued a bit like Lawrence: they teach it because it's nice to look at and it's a stuff that can be easily controled in tests.

But today I knwo that it is one of the moste important things for the use of classical and pop music, jazz as well!

Why don't they show all? It would be too much stuff to show all equivalents and beginners would have a bad overview. I for myself often draw only a sector of it above a bow to see it clearer when I make a mind map to memorize the progression.

a circle of fifths in German spelling:

enter image description here

C o.V (ohne Vorzeichen) means C without sign.

  • sorry ther was still an error: transcribing Heses (German) to Bbb ... – Albrecht Hügli Apr 12 at 10:08
  • I'd be interested to see a German circle of fifths. – Tim Apr 12 at 16:15
  • the circle of fifths with sharps and flats it is identical with the English except B = H. But instead of saying flat or sharp we ad an is for # to the root tones of the scale C,D,E,F,G,A,H,C So the circle and also the accidentals are F#,C#,G#,D#,A#,E#,H#, are called: Fis,Cis,Gis,Dis,Ais,Eis,His. However the flat keys are not so regularly spelt: Fes,Ces,Ges,Des,Es,As,Hes, – Albrecht Hügli Apr 12 at 16:29
  • I believe you are mistaken about either the meaning or the translation of o. V. It means ohne Vorzeichen, which translates as without key signature. This meaning is clear from the context, because the analogous notation for each other node on the circle describes the associated key signature. Also, how can there be a Hes when adding a flat sign to H yields B? – phoog Apr 13 at 4:47
  • Of course, you are absolutely right. H flat is B. But Hbb (B double flat) is called Heses as Fx (F double sharp) is spelled Fisis (equivalent to A and G). B.t.w. I had to break the circle in the 2nd line above between Cisis and Heses as it usually is at F#/Gb ... – Albrecht Hügli Apr 13 at 5:52

Your Answer

By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.