If I double the melody across an octave, the sound stands out to me. But I never played with an orchestra before, so I don't know, if it would be noticeable (brass held out notes forte). If I play the melody in one octave only, the sound is duller but I can hammer it more (put more weight to the keyboard) and it sounds louder. I can't have both hands to play the melody because the other hand has an ostinato. what would be louder?
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2It's somewhat unclear what your question is, plus, it sounds like you already have the answer. Please clarify.– AaronCommented Oct 21 at 18:38
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2I suggest identifying the piece you are playing. Is it a piano concerto? Brass playing held notes forte against a piano melody doesn’t sound practical.– John BelzaguyCommented Oct 21 at 18:58
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1If it is a piece you are writing it is up to you to write what you want the piano to play and make the orchestra fit into that scheme. Regardless of volume, a melody in octaves has a different sound and character than one played with single notes. Start by deciding which you prefer and work from there. Apart from that, even though I’m not a pianist, I would say octaves can be played louder and more forcefully than single notes in general.– John BelzaguyCommented Oct 21 at 19:05
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3Whatever you do, you are not going to win a whole (modern) orchestra brass section playing forte with a piano (or any solo instrument whatsoever)– ComputerUser121212Commented Oct 21 at 19:12
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2Is this a question about orchestrating your original composition? An exact answer might be subjective. The best strategy for learning how to create a balanced orchestration is study, study, study. Study scores of highly-regarded piano concertos and compare them with recordings of good performances. It might take years to learn how to balance an orchestra and a piano soloist in your writing.– Todd WilcoxCommented Oct 21 at 19:30
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2 Answers
As a pianist who hasn't played with a full orchestra but knowing full well what a 9' grand piano is capable of producing, and having been in piano concerto rehearsals hearing up close the contrast of sound power between a 9' grand piano and the brass section, I can tell you that a pianist playing octaves in the upper register WILL NOT WIN against the brass section holding their notes forte, even if you tell the pianist to play fff.
Here are some reasons the piano cannot win:
By nature of the piano sound, once the hammer hit the string, the piano sound will begin to decay away, faster in the upper register. Unless the melody is fast enough, this is a big problem working against the non-decaying note of the brass.
You may not want the pianist to play fff, because not only the loudness change, but also the color of the sound. It will sound harsher and may not for the character of the melody you're producing.
So it's just not going to work. Some suggestions:
- Reduce the type/number of brass players
- Reduce the f to an mp
- Transpose the notes of the brass lower so they don't compete with the piano playing in the upper register
- Double the piano melody with other orchestral instruments
- Use separate mikes for the piano and a mixer for the House speakers, but that's cheating.
I like the bolded solution the best, or a combination of the above.
I also recommend you find EXISTING scores of piano concertos where the piano is playing together with brass instrument(s) holding out notes, and see how the composer deals with it.
One concerto that comes to mind is Rachmaninoff's 2nd Piano Concerto, 1st movement (sample performance here). Notice the balance of sound in these sections of the score when several brass instruments are holding the notes while the piano is playing:
- Section 6, page 13: 3 French horns holding chords playing p with piano playing mf (single note melody on RH, arpeggio on LH)
- Section 9, page 26: 4 French horns holding chords playing p with piano playing the melody as top note of massive rapid chords in f. Both doing crescendo until page 28 where the French horns holding chords playing f with tuba at p and the piano at ff only doing chords (because the melody is taken over by the soaring strings now at f which by this time sounds louder than the piano).
- Section 10, page 30-31: Trumpets taking over the melody at f with other brass holding chords crescendo. At page 31 (minute 6:50) we have all brass playing ff accented notes with piano playing fff 7 note chords in upper register, barely audible drowned by the strings which also play ff until the next section where piano takes over the lead.
- Section 10, pages 32-34 (minute 6:56): brass playing short chords every beat at mf while melody is in the strings (ff) and piano plays the variation of the melody as top note of 8-note chords at ff. Only by playing in this way the piano can be prominent.
I hope the above segments should give you an idea how to balance the loudness of piano and the rest of the sections of the orchestra.
Two things: playing and octavized version of a melody with one hand sounds like a recipe for a cramp to me. But my experience in mixing would say playing double is better for what you want to achieve. It may not even be "louder" but what you want is to cut through the mix of instrumentation. Covering two octaves gives you more tonal range to occupy and be heard, but then again, the arrangment should leave space for each instrument anyway, not sure if brute forcing yourself to be heard is a good way forward - either you have a place carved out in the composition or you are all working together.
